Tiler Peck, KATARINA BALLERINA

Zibby Owens: Welcome to Inside and Out, the body edition of the July Book Blast. This is Thursday's Body Blast. Let's call it that, the Body Blast. I'm calling it that because one author is a ballerina, one is a yoga teacher, and one investigates DNA. That's why. I hope you'll enjoy these varied takes on the human body.

Tiler Peck is the coauthor of Katarina Ballerina. She is an international ballerina herself and has been a principal dancer with the New York City Ballet since 2009. She has been seen on Broadway in On the Town and The Music Man and originated the role of Marie in the Kennedy Center’s production of Little Dancer alongside Kyle Harris, who's the coauthor. Ms. Peck performed for President Obama at the 2012 and 2014 Kennedy Center Honors. Ms. Peck has guested on Dancing with the Stars twice and appeared on Julie Andrews’s Netflix series, Julie’s Greenroom. She's the recipient of the 2013 Princess Grace Statue Award and was named one of Forbes' 30 Under 30 in Hollywood/Entertainment. Most recently, she was the first woman to curate three performances titled Ballet Now at the Los Angeles Music Center and is the subject of a documentary directed by Steven Cantor and produced by Elisabeth Moss for Hulu. She lives in New York City with her dog, Cali.

Welcome, Tiler. Thanks so much for coming on my show.

Tiler Peck: Thank you for having me.

Zibby: This is such a treat, oh, my gosh. You're a world-famous ballerina. It's amazing. The best part, though, are your Instagram classes. I want to hear about your book, Katarina Ballerina, but your Instagram during quarantine and starting classes and Josh Groban popping by, tell me about all of that.

Tiler: It's really become something so incredible. I started it out just because I need to continue staying in shape to stay in New York City Ballet shape. I need to do class every single day. When the quarantine hit and I thought, okay, I need to give myself class, I thought, I bet there are so many people stuck at home going crazy with nothing to do. So many of their normal classes are probably canceled. I'd never done an Instagram Live. I thought, I think this is how you do it. I'll just push the button. I'll see it how goes. Maybe there will be like five people dancing with me. Then I didn't know what the numbers meant, honestly. I didn't know what it meant. Then when somebody said, "There was 1,500 people dancing with you today," I thought, how incredible. Then I started getting messages from all around the world, people in Iran, South Africa, Australia, the UK, everybody. That is so special to me. We're really going through this tough time with COVID and then now the riots and everything. If I can keep people connected in dance and bringing together different forms and different guests to help spread their joy -- Josh Groban was one of my favorite guests who popped on because he was just so fun, so funny. Who knew? I had no idea. Such a great sense of humor. How special for people in their homes to get to dance to Josh Groban singing. That doesn't happen very often. I'm just trying to bring joy to people's lives. It's been really, really incredible for me too.

Zibby: That's so awesome. Are you going to keep it going? Do you have a plan, or just see how it goes?

Tiler: I know. Everybody keeps asking me that. Obviously, I won't be able to do it at the time when I normally do it because I'll be giving -- hopefully, when we get back to New York City Ballet, I'll be in my own class. I am going to have figure out some sort of way to keep it going because I would feel so bad like I was leaving all of these people behind. I know they count on it. I don't know. I definitely won't give it up. It'll be in a different form. Turn Out with Tiler will be in some other form.

Zibby: It's so neat. It's really great you provide that service. I hadn’t done Instagram Live either until the quarantine. I was like, um, what do I press? It's great. It's such a nice way to be able to unite people around things they're interested in. I do book stuff in a much smaller scale than you. Still, it's so nice to be able to connect this way and bring stories like yours.

Tiler: Actually, Kyle and I, who's my coauthor for Katarina Ballerina, we've done an Instagram Live. We started a Saturday Stories where we start at the beginning of the book. We've only done two so far. We're just reading it through and letting anybody who wants to ask us questions pop in. We do a little Q&A. It's been really fun to get to know the readers because we didn't get to have our book signing tour that we were planning on. This is a way for us to still get to hear from our readers.

Zibby: Tell me about Katarina Ballerina, which I read. I read half of it out loud to my daughter who's almost seven. What inspired you to write the book? How did you team up with Kyle Harris? Tell me the whole story.

Tiler: Kyle Harris and I met when we were doing a new Broadway musical. We were doing it in DC in 2014, actually. It was called Little Dancer. He plays my opposite. He plays my boyfriend in the show. We became really great friends. We're completely different. He knows nothing about dance. He actually grew up playing soccer and then moved into musical theater. He's a really great actor and has a great voice. We were in this musical together. He was in awe of the ballet world because that's what the musical was. It was called Little Dancer. Now it’s called Marie. It's about Edgar Degas' sculpture, the Little Dancer. I play her. Here he was surrounded in this world of ballet which he knew nothing about. He wrote a little poem. The poem was Katarina Ballerina. It was just a little one-page poem. He showed it to me. I was like, "Kyle, this is really good. I think you actually have something here."

It wasn't until a few years later, 2017 I believe, when I said, "You know what Kyle? Let's really try and make something happen with that poem. I don't know what it is, but let's just get in a room and see what we can do." We thought, okay, we'll make a children's picture book. When we went to Simon & Schuster, we thought, here's the poem. We think this could be a really cute children's picture book. They said, "We love it, but we want you to make a chapter book because we think that this has more of a story and a message than just a picture book. Would you want to go back and start trying to write a chapter book?" We were like, that seems very daunting, but we'll try. We went back. We started writing together. I always really enjoyed writing. Kyle's really great. The two of us together, it was just such a great partnership. It made for a really fun and interesting story because we were able to incorporate ourselves a little bit in her. He has this crazy curly hair. He's the one who's a little pigeon-toed. We thought, why don't we put those characteristics into Katerina? She isn't the perfect dancer. She doesn't have what you think the perfect ballerina looks like, whatever that may be. She wanted slicked-back hair and perfect turnout.

We wanted Katerina not to have those things, but to have that thing that you can't teach, which is that light that makes people want to watch you dance. That is the most important thing, I think, in a dancer. You can work on technique, but it's really hard to teach somebody to have that joy. That has to come from within. That's really the message. It's owning your own unique gifts. What she thinks are what's going to hold her back is really what ends up making her stand out. It's not comparing yourself to the next student. If I were to compare myself to anybody in the New York City Ballet, I'd probably be like, I think maybe I shouldn't dance. Somebody always has something better than you. You may have something better than them. It's just, everybody's different. I really think that's an important message for kids, but also just anybody to be reminded of that.

Zibby: It's so true. Sometimes the things you wish weren’t there are the things that make you who you are. That's where all the great stuff comes from at the end of it. It's much harder to feel that way especially at Katerina's age and when you're struggling to fit in or you just want to look like everybody else in the dance class or all the rest. It's a very important message at any age.

Tiler: I know it was good to remind myself. With social media, you can go down that rabbit hole of looking at -- for me, sometimes I'll just want to watch ballet videos. Sometimes when I watch those beautiful Russian dancers who have extension, I think, oh, my goodness, why do I even dance? [laughs] I have what Katerina has where I just love to dance. I think that's what people, I hope, see when they watch me dance. I just try to focus on that. I might not be able to get my leg above my head or whatever, but I can dance. It was good for me to remind myself.

Zibby: It's so true. Watching someone do what they love, it's almost this contagious effect. You feel their joy. You feel you're participating in it in some way. Also, as an audience member, hardly anybody can tell the difference. Probably, you as a professional dancer can tell the difference between you and some Russian dancer, but nobody else would be able to tell the fraction of an inch of difference that you were worried about.

Tiler: As ballerinas, perfectionism doesn't really exist, but we are as close to it as possible. I feel like I'm my hardest critic. If one little finger is out of place, I'm like, gosh, that could've been better. It's true. We have to always remind ourselves.

Zibby: This is sort of off topic, but just wondering. There's so much a stereotype of dancers, that it comes with, sometimes, body image issues because you're using your body all the time. You hear about a lot of people have maladaptive eating habits and all the rest. They're so worried about their bodies and everything. How do you have such -- well, I'm assuming. I shouldn't assume. What is your relationship with your body like? How do you try to maintain the positive despite the environment that can be negative?

Tiler: I think that attributes to a few things. One was the way I was brought up. I have a really supportive family. If had some sort of eating thing, I know my mom would pull me out of dance right away. It was always just, you have to fuel your body to be strong. I never really ever had to think about that because that was just what was engrained in me. I think a lot of us are lucky. My mom was a dancer. My father was a college football coach. I did have the athletic genes, I feel like. People are really interested when they see how much I actually do eat. They're like, "Wait, you're going to eat that?" I'm like, "Yeah, are you?" at dinners with the dessert and stuff. That's just how I've always been. My favorite food is pasta, actually. Before every single performance, the night before I always have pasta. I think it's a mental thing. At the same time, I don't think you would really think a ballerina loves pasta or salad dressing or eats dessert. That's always been me. I can't speak for all ballerinas, but I've always felt like I had a really good head on my shoulders. I think that that comes from my parents who just brought me up that way.

Zibby: Gosh, the pressure on the parents to make sure to raise their kids like you. [laughs]

Tiler: It's [indiscernible] because you see so many injuries in dance. I've actually had some, but very little for the amount I've danced and the demand that is put on my body. I really think that that comes from correct diet and taking care of yourself. You have to be really disciplined, not only in class, but with recovery and fueling the body. I think that if you're not constantly making sure that you have snacks with you throughout the day or that you're hydrating, that's when injuries, I think, happen more often than others.

Zibby: Interesting. You are a ballerina still with the New York City Ballet. You have performed on Broadway, also in Kennedy Center. You've written this book. You're still so young. What do you want to do with the rest -- what's your big plan? Do you have a big plan of what's coming next for you? I feel like the sky is the limit, is basically what I'm trying to say with what you could do with your talent and magnetism and all the rest. I'm just wondering, do you have a pie-in-the-sky dream of what's to come for the rest of your life or even just the next couple years?

Tiler: What I've really loved during these classes is that people have gotten to really get to know me. I think that ballerinas can sometimes be put on this, I always like to say this untouchable pedestal where they're looked to be as, oh, they're perfect and their life is just perfect. That's just not me. I really feel like with these classes people have gotten -- they’ve really seen me as how I am, in my parent's kitchen doing class. I mess up. I say, you guys, sorry, I'm totally not perfect, so just bear with me. I'm sorry I messed up that step. I taught you one thing and then I did the other. [laughs] That's what I really think is important for ballet to be more accessible to people. I don't know if there's a talk show that would happen like how I've been bringing in guests. Maybe that could become something. I've always wanted to direct a company later on down the road. Maybe that will be a dream of mine that could come true. I don't really know. I'm just having fun at the moment.

Zibby: I don't know why I ask these questions that make people feel uncomfortable sometimes. I don't really need a real answer. I just think it's fun to dream. I like to hear what other people's dreams are in part as well. No pressure to actually go do any of that. I think you should write a memoir. Have you thought about that?

Tiler: I have thought about writing another book about my injury because it was really a very traumatic one where I was told that I would never dance again.

Zibby: What happened?

Tiler: I had a herniated disk, a very severe one in my neck. It was so severe that it was pushing on my spinal cord. I was told, "You'll never dance again. You have to get surgery right away." Long story short, I just feel like there's a lot of people that go through what I went through, which was maybe not feeling like the doctors understood. They didn't understand my profession. They'd always say, "You're a gymnast," or yes, a professional athlete, but they would relate me to a football player. Ballet, you have to use your neck. You have to use your [indiscernible]. Where they were saying, "We can just fix it and we'll fuse something together," I was like, "No, I'll never be able to move my neck the same way ever again. I need to do that." It made me grow really strong as a person. I just feel like there's so many things that I would love to share with people so that they know. It's a really lonely road when you're injured. You feel like nobody understands, nobody's listening.

I would just love to share what I learned because maybe that could help other people. I think the most important lesson was that nobody knows your body better than you. You can use all of the medical knowledge because obviously they know more about the medical field, but they're not inside your body. I think that there's a point where you really have to listen to that voice inside. My voice kept saying, I understand this is really serious, but I don't want to get surgery until that's the last thing that I have to do. I just need to sit and wait and give myself the opportunity to heal. Then if it doesn't, then I'll get the surgery. I felt the pressure. I just want people to know, don't do anything out of pressure or fear. Do it when you're ready. I didn't get it, and I came back. I just did full-length Swan Lake.

Zibby: Oh, my gosh. So your body just healed on its own? Were you doing physical therapy, or it just healed?

Tiler: I definitely was doing physical therapy. I did a lot of energy healing, which sounds a little crazy, but it really helped me. I did all these natural things, and I came back dancing.

Zibby: That's amazing. Energy things like Reiki?

Tiler: I don't really know. He's just an energy healer. It was forty-five minutes of talking and then forty-five minutes of energy bodywork. We'd do something different every time, but I saw him once a week. I still do because I believe in it so much.

Zibby: I just love hearing stories like that. It is so inspiring. It is so important. It's just amazing how quick other people can be to say -- it's like they want to do the surgery sometimes. I don't mean to disparage any surgeons, but that's what they do. If you go to a surgeon and you show them a problem, then they give you the surgical solution.

Tiler: Yeah, that's how they know how to fix it. I'm sure they would fix it just fine. I just didn't want to do that until I was ready. It was hard because I kept hearing one thing, but I kept thinking I have to just stick with what I believe. I did. I'm so glad I did.

Zibby: How long did the recovery process take you?

Tiler: I was out from March or April, I can't remember, until my first show back was the weekend after Thanksgiving. I was out until November. It was a lot of months of absolutely nothing. I couldn't move my head. It was really crazy, but I stuck with it.

Zibby: How did you deal with that emotionally?

Tiler: It was so hard. I'm used to dancing every day of my life. When that's taken away, oh, my gosh, you have to focus on all the other stuff that you love, but you don't feel like you're complete. It was really hard, but I feel like I grew up a lot. Weirdly, I think it was this blessing in a disguise kind of thing.

Zibby: That's a nice attitude about it. I'm sorry you had to go through that, but at least you got the lessons out that can inform the rest of what's to come. Sorry, go ahead. What were you going to say?

Tiler: I was just going to say it let me have time to focus on Katerina. We were really able to work on that. With my leotard line, I was able to focus on that. A lot of things I don't normally have time for, I was able to use that time to keep my brain creative and working while I couldn't be physical.

Zibby: What are the plans -- I know it's volume one, Katerina. Your first book is titled volume one. Do you have a number in mind for how many? Have you written the next installment yet? What's the thinking behind that?

Tiler: We're working on book two cover right now. They have the outline. We've just seen the initial book two cover. I'm not allowed to say who the character is, but Katerina will be -- you'll start meeting some of her friends. It's kind of the same story about how dance is this universal language that ties a lot of people together from around the world. Simon & Schuster signed us for two, but we gave them an outline of ten books. We're hoping to have Katerina continue on.

Zibby: Good for you. That's awesome. I love it. Really great. Do you have any advice to aspiring authors?

Tiler: I would say just try it. I, like you, also agree that you kind of have to put the dreams out, put them out into the universe to even know if they can happen. For so long, I never would've dreamt of being an author, but I know I have a lot of things to share. I think the first step is just getting past being scared to even try. That was why it took us from 2014 to '17 to be like, okay, let's just go. They could say no, or they could say yes. They loved the idea. I would say if you want to do it, you should really just try for it.

Zibby: If you ever find yourself with tons more time with nothing to do, which it sounds like that's not the type of person that you are by nature so you're probably not going to, but I have a thirteen-year-old daughter and I feel like you would be great at writing a book for that age group also. Just to put my two cents in here, the injury memoir is super important. I think that's important to get out there. I also think just the way you inhabit your body and using it for strength and good and art and joy is a message for that I feel like teen girls could really, really benefit from and that there's not enough of that. In your spare time, maybe just whip up one of those manuscripts too. [laughs]

Tiler: Okay. It's funny. The ballet is off now. We don't know when we will back, which is very sad, but I've actually been really busy because these classes keep me so busy preparing. We joke that this house has become -- my mom is the production assistant. My dad is craft services. [Indiscernible/laughter] with a funny title. I'm also the booker. I just reach out to people. I say, "I've been doing these free classes. Would you want to pop on?" Everybody has said yes. I really didn't expect for so many people to be so excited by it. I think everybody wants to help bring joy right now and stay connected. This is one little way to do that.

Zibby: It's great. Keep doing what you're doing. Just add these to the list if you're looking for new ideas. [laughs] Thanks, Tiler. Thanks so much for talking to me and sharing your story. It's really inspiring and awesome.

Tiler: Thank you. It was nice meeting you.

Zibby: You too. Take care. Buh-bye.

Tiler: Bye.

Zibby: Thanks for listening to Body Blast Thursday, one of the last days of my July Book Blast. I hope you've enjoyed hearing from a ballerina or a DNA specialist or a yoga aficionado.

Natascha Biebow, THE CRAYON MAN

Zibby Owens: Natascha Biebow was born in Johannesburg, South Africa, and grew up in Rio de Janeiro, Brazil, where she went to an American school. She studied developmental psychology at Smith College and completed a degree in early childhood education and an International Diploma in Montessori Pedagogy in 2013. She wrote, as an editor, Is this My Nose?, illustrated by Georgie Birkett, which won the Booktrust Best Book for Babes. She's also written many other books including the recent story The Crayon Man: The True Story of the Invention of Crayola Crayons, which is really fantastic. I've now read it like fifty times to my kids. You should too.

Hi.

Natascha Biebow: Hello.

Zibby: How are you?

Natascha: I'm good. Thanks. It's so fun to see you live.

Zibby: Thanks. I'm really excited to talk to you. I've read The Crayon Man now like five times to my kids in the last week or so. They love it. I'm really excited to talk to you.

Natascha: How old are your kids?

Zibby: I have four kids, but I read it to my five-and-a-half-year-old and almost-seven-year-old. I have twins that are about to be thirteen. They are kind of past this, but I love reading children's books. What inspired you to write this story? Tell me more about The Crayon Man.

Natascha: I was looking for a topic to write for a nonfiction picture book course that I was taking. I needed a topic really fast and was watching an episode of Sesame Street with my son who was four then. We saw this great video about how the Crayola crayons are made in the factory. I remembered how much I liked them from my childhood. I hadn’t really thought about Crayola crayons in a little while. I saw the collating machine that has all the colors stacked up. When you see them, they're this amazing rainbow of colors. It's just such a vivid picture. Then I started thinking, maybe that would make a good topic. The more I started looking into it, the more a really cool story emerged. I discovered that no one had told this story quite the way I wanted to tell it, which was about Edwin Binney the man as opposed to just the historical, very old-fashioned, dry nonfiction approaches that were out there about just Crayola and a very liner history, shall we say, of how the crayons had been made and invented which talked about Edwin Binney and his company. I just got digging. The more I dug, the more interesting things that I found.

Zibby: What brought you to take that class in the first place?

Natascha: I've been writing picture books for a really long time. I'm also a picture book and young fiction editor. When I needed to make some money, I was focusing more on my editing, and when my son came along, on parenting and so on. Then I just got to a point where I thought, I need a new direction. I need some deadlines. I need someone to get me unstuck from the balancing act that is trying to cram too many things in your life. I decided to take this class. It would be eight weeks. By the end of it, you'd have written a book. I just thought, that's what I need. I need to be accountable in some way. It worked.

Zibby: Was it an online or actual-person class?

Natascha: It was an online class with Kristin Fulton who unfortunately isn't offering the class anymore. It was really great. She talked us through the whole genre of nonfiction picture books and the different aspects of writing in that particular area. It was an area that I'd explored a little bit but hadn’t focused as much on. I started remembering how much I like true stories because sometimes the true stories are quirkier than stuff that you can imagine. I like that about it. Through the course, we had weekly meetings and assignments. Kristin talked us through different aspects of the craft and different parts of writing a nonfiction book. We got some feedback from her as well, which was really great, and also from our classmates.

Zibby: That's so neat. It's so funny how you can get something done in such a finite period of time when you have goals and regular accountability and all of that as opposed to having a goal that's just so vague and maybe you'll get it done, maybe you won't. I feel like I'm the type of person who needs that level of structure to get stuff done regularly, or at least a self-imposed structure, if not in class.

Natascha: Absolutely. Kristin was like, by this week, you need to have started your research. By this week, you need your ten key facts about whatever topic so that we can see if it's going to make a book or if you need to go and look into stuff. By this point, you've got to collect enough information, but stop. One of the things about researching is you could go on. You find interesting things. You go down a little rabbit hole here. You realize, oh, I'm way off topic. You have to know when you've got enough to write the book. Then once you write the first draft, you can go back and ask further questions and find further verification for certain things that are still not clear, but at least you've got something that's starting to look like a story with a beginning, middle, and an end kind of thing.

Zibby: My son was wondering, though, why they got so many different colors all over their faces and their clothing every time. [laughs]

Natascha: Someone asked me that in a recent school visit. I said if you imagine it's like you're making a cake and you are baking and the flour goes everywhere and you mix it with a lot of vigor. I think part of that is slightly artistic license from the illustrator's point of view to convey the point. I do imagine they were in this lab with all kinds of materials and it got messy.

Zibby: I answered something similar to that, but your answer was better. Tell me about some of your other books. What's the first picture book you worked on?

Natascha: My first picture book was called Eleonora or Elephants Never Forget. It was inspired by a trip to Africa with my parents. My parents lived in South Africa when I was very little. We went back a few times as I grew up. We were staying on a game reserve and talking about elephants. I learned that when an elephant dies, and often unfortunately through poaching, the other elephants from far and wide will come and pay their respects to the elephant that died. It just struck me as such a moving phenomenon. Elephants are almost like people in that respect. They seem to sense that somebody from their tribe had left. I wrote this book. It’s not a hundred percent nonfiction. It's more an inspired story based on the story the game people had told me. I just love elephants. I think they're such majestic creatures. I wrote that book. That was published quite a long time ago. In my work as an editor, I've done a lot of writing as well. I have written some nonfiction and fiction. The one that I really like a lot was called Is This My Nose? It's a baby board book, very simple text about different parts of your face. It's fun, illustrated by Georgie Birkett.

Zibby: Awesome. What's coming next? Are you working on another book? Do you always have a lot of projects at once? How do you work?

Natascha: Authors always have lots of books in their bottom drawer, I'd say, or on submission in various stages. I've written a chapter book in a chapter book series proposal that's out on submission. It's inspired by teachers because I'm always fascinated by the hugely important role that teachers play in our lives. I've also written some other nonfiction books, picture books like The Crayon Man, that are at various stages. A couple are out on submission. Others, I'm researching more. Partly, it's a question of having the right story at the right time because publishers' lists are very busy. They're always trying to find a balance between all the different topics they're publishing and the different voices they want to hear from and what's timely for kids right now. Part of it is also just having enough time to research everything and get the book written. Again, it comes back to the juggling of paid work versus trying to be a working author and live just off that.

Zibby: As an author and an editor, what do you think makes a great children's book?

Natascha: For me, it's got to be child centered. It's got to be a book that speaks to kids. I think a great picture book has to have wonderful art that's inspiring but also that isn't too lofty, shall we say. We don't want it to be the coffee table book that looks beautiful but is just too grown up for them to really access. I think the story has to be from the heart. It has to be a story that is relevant to children in their everyday lives. They’ve got to be able to find a way into the story that moves them or that speaks to them in terms of their experience and it sparks curiosity, perhaps. Also, I love a text that has a good rhythm to it. The parent has to read it hundreds of time. Maybe also some levels of jokes or humor to draw in the grown-ups. That always helps. It's such a multilayered piece of art. Picture books are full of different aspects that draw in different readers. Ideally, one that endures is one that has a real sense of wonder, perhaps, or it speaks to you emotionally in some way. I'm sure as a parent you read loads of picture books, don't you?

Zibby: I do. I do. I read picture books all the time. I really do love nonfiction picture books. I was going to say historical picture books. I think those are really great because then kids -- I'm such a visual person. It really helps me to see the factory and the brothers and all of the stuff. Now I understand. I can look at the Crayon box and I'll feel very differently from now on and have a different set of images going through my head. I love humor. I love when books use the book form in a different way. I love in the Elephant & Piggie books how sometimes they talk to the reader. We Are in a Book! by Mo Willems is probably my favorite picture book ever. We are in a book. The book ends? [laughs] It's so funny. It's so self-referential. It's so clever and brilliant. Picture books are great. They're great to read as parents and such a bonding thing to do with your children and fostering that love of reading early. Having great options is super important, so thank you for contributing to the great options.

Natascha: Thank you. I was also going to say the interesting thing about the nonfiction that we're seeing more recently is that there's lots of different kinds of nonfiction. It's drawing in those readers who really like facts but maybe haven't accessed story in the same way. Maybe because they're so drawn in by the facts, they're now going to be compelled by the story to read different things, we hope. Or the other way around, the kids who really like the narrative, maybe they’ll start looking at nonfiction differently. It's a nice genre that way too.

Zibby: Totally. Do you have final advice for aspiring picture book or children's book authors?

Natascha: My advice is to persevere and bum on seat. You’ve got to have your butt in your chair. You got to put in the hours. You really have to be prepared for the journey that is being a writer. The many drafts, the whole process of getting published is not for the fainthearted. It requires a lot of perseverance. Also, just literally getting up and spending the time to write or illustrate and to further your craft and always be open to learning from other people, looking to inspiration, reading a lot of other books, and just to keep your mind open for new possibilities. You really need to be prepared to not give up because it's a tough genre to get published in. It's also a really wonderful community of people working in this area who are very supportive and open to sharing their advice and supporting you on your journey as a published or pre-published author or illustrator, as we like to call people on their journey.

Zibby: Awesome. Thank you so much. Thanks for coming on "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books." Thanks for entertaining my kids and me for lots of bedtimes.

Natascha: That's amazing. I'm so glad you liked The Crayon Man. It's been really fun to connect with you. Thanks, Zibby.

Zibby: You too. Thanks a lot. Buh-bye.

Natascha: Bye.

Stephen Shaskan, PIZZA AND TACO

Zibby Owens: Welcome to day two of the second week of the July Book Blast. This is the seventh day in all of my ten-day July Book Blast with episodes I recorded throughout the quarantine, some quarantine related, some not, all of which deserve to see the light of day before the summer comes to an end. Today is Young Readers Day. I have a collection of children's books and middle grade and all sorts of stuff that your kids might like. How interesting to hear from children's book writers, which is exciting to me because I actually sold two children's books to Penguin Random House that will be coming out in the next year or two. I have a personal affinity for children's book authors. Enjoy these episodes.

Stephen Shaskan is the author and illustrator of several picture books including Big Choo, spelled C-H-O-O, Toad on the Road, Max Speed, The Three Triceratops Tuff, A Dog Is a Dog, and the new graphic novel series which, by the way, my littlest guy is obsessed with called Pizza and Taco. He also illustrated the picture book Punk Skunks and the graphic novel series Q and Ray, both written by his wife, Trisha Speed Shaskan. Stephen and Trisha live in Minneapolis, Minnesota, and love visiting schools and libraries, reading their stories, and inspiring young authors and illustrators.

Hi.

Stephen Shaskan: Hi. How's it going?

Zibby: Good. How about you?

Stephen: Going good.

Zibby: Awesome. Thanks for joining today.

Stephen: Thanks for having me. This is really great.

Zibby: Are these all your books in the back? You want to give me a little tour of some of these books?

Stephen: I have The Three Triceratops Tuff picture book that I wrote with Simon & Schuster. A Dog Is a Dog, the one right here in the middle, this one right here, that one's my first book that I ever wrote. That's with Chronicle Books back in 2011. Then Toad on the Road is with HarperCollins along with my books with my wife, Trisha Speed Shaskan, Punk Skunks, which is over here. What else? The Q and Ray series also, I wrote with Trisha. That's been a lot of fun too. Those are my books. I worked as an educational assistant and an after-school art teacher for about eight years in the public schools here in Minneapolis. From there, I went on to be working in preschools for about twelve years. I was a preschool teacher for twelve years. Then I slowly transitioned over here into making books for kids. I went to Rhode Island School of Design for illustration, but that was a long, long time ago. That's what my original intent was. I made a lot of my own comics when I was in my twenties, and poster designs for bands and other things like that, but just started focusing on working on creating books for kids the past ten years or so.

Zibby: Wow. That's exciting. Tell me the story of publishing your first picture book for kids.

Stephen: A Dog Is a Dog was a real fun one. It was while I was working as a preschool teacher. I was coming up with ideas for different books. I always put in a lot of fun things in books. This one's going to be backwards, obviously, because of the Instagram thing. Dog Is a Dog, a fun thing about this book is I always put a little bit of nonsense in my books. You can tell by Pizza and Taco being two characters that are just kids, that type of thing. It goes "A dog is a dog, whether it's naughty or nice, whether it suns on the beach or glides on the ice. A dog is a dog if it's skinny or fat. A dog is a dog unless it's a cat." This goes on having a lot of different animals coming out in costumes and so forth until it comes back to being a dog. I like putting humor in my books. I like doing that. This book came about, I did drawings for it and I sent it out. It took a year to have a response to it. I had nine rejections from different publishers. Then a year after I sent it out, Chronicle Books contacted me. They really liked it, but they didn't like the art, and so I had to work on the art more. I don't have an example. I should have an example of my original dummy, but it changed a lot. I really am happy with the end result. That's the story of my first book. Then from there, it was just trying to figure out what comes next. Then what came next was The Three Triceratops Tuff. I got that idea from three kids in my preschool who were pretending to play the Billy Goats Gruff as dinosaurs. I was like, wow, that's a really good idea. [laughs] Of course, it made absolutely no sense the way they were doing it. I had to make it make sense.

Zibby: When you were young, when you were a little kid, were you drawing all the time? Was that your thing? Did you always know you wanted to do that, and the kid thing came later, basically?

Stephen: Yes, that's all I did. I drew all the time. It was my favorite thing to do. I always wanted to be an artist. After going to art school, I realized that not everybody who likes to make art was supported by their parents, but my parents were always really big into it. My dad was a stockbroker. My mom was a stay-at-home mom, but she also did accounting for things and other stuff. They both really supported my art. My dad actually, even though he was a stockbroker, painted on the side. He did oil paintings, landscape paintings in the basement. He always had setups for his art. Right now, he sells his art at art fairs. He's retired. He's eighty-six now. He's down in Florida. He puts on art shows and art fairs and things. They’ve always been really super supportive of my art. That was a lot of fun growing up and always having supplies. That was something that they never had a problem with me doing. I always loved making art. I also loved comics growing up. Reading comics was my main thing to read. I was considered a reluctant reader. At the time, I probably read like three thousand comics. [laughs] I started thinking about how many comics. I would go to the comic store at least once a month with my dad and spend all my allowance on my comics. Back then, it was sixty cents a comic. My allowance wasn't that much. Still, over the course of a month I would save it all up and be able to get something.

With Pizza and Taco, what was really cool was when I was a kid, I just loved comics so much. I had a group of friends in elementary school. I grew up in Syracuse, New York. I had a group of friends there. We all made comics. We all drew comics and loved to make art and talk about comics and everything. It was just a really cool thing. I grew up on all the Richie Riches and Casper the Friendly Ghost and Underdog and all those kind of goofy ones. Also, then I got into superhero comics like the X-Men and the Teen Titans and those books and collected -- I still have quite a number of my collection, but not all my collection. Over time, things kind of whittled down. I think I went from collecting comics to collecting albums in high school. When I was working on this book, it was a lot of fun because I just delved back into reading comics. I had been making picture books for so long. Suddenly, I'm working in this medium that I just loved. I'm sitting there at my desk working and just laughing and having so much fun creating this. When Q and Ray first came out, there was this joy just because it was like, wow, I created a real comic. Like I said, in my twenties, I made a bunch of my own scrappy, Xerox-copied comics into independent adult comics. Still, this was like, wow, this is a real thing. I was really excited. That's what brought me to create Pizza and Taco.

Zibby: Tell everybody more about Pizza and Taco because it is so fantastic. It's sort of like an advanced Elephant & Piggie of sorts. It's these new characters blasting on the scene. Tell me how you came up with it and all the rest.

Stephen: This is the book right here. We do a lot of school visits. With Q and Ray especially, when we utilized school visits, we would create characters of kids, original characters, original comic characters, and show kids how they can create their own. One of the big rules is to keep it to simple shapes because you're drawing these characters over and over and over again hundreds of times in just one book. You're drawing each character. That was a really important thing to get across to kids, to just use simple shapes and that type of thing. Then we give some background to the characters before. Before you start writing a story, you want to have a little bit of a background and think about, who are these characters? What do they like to do? What are they afraid of? all these types of things. One of the things is, what's their favorite food? Every school that we went to it was either pizza or tacos, was their favorite food. It's funny because my favorite food is pizza. Trisha's favorite food is tacos. It kind of made sense. I was like, oh, there's that weird nonsense of, why don't I just make this into a -- why aren't pizza and taco best friends? We had characters like Pizza Man because every once in a while somebody would pick a triangle head.

Then I started thinking about, how simple could I draw a piece of a pizza and a taco? Pretty much a triangle and a half circle. You can see, it's just a half circle here and then the triangle shape, just trying to keep it as simple as possible so I can draw them over and over again. I was really also inspired by the Narwhal and Jelly series. I just loved that. Trisha and I also teach week-long comic classes at the Loft Literary Center here in Minneapolis. It was really cool to see. Kids would come in and they'd be drawing all the Narwhal and Jelly characters. Just seeing that, I wanted something that kids could draw easily themselves because I think that's really powerful for kids. I've been doing that with different things where I've had a couple school visits this past week online and showing kids how to draw Pizza and Taco, but also showing them how to draw other characters that might be food-related comic characters. The kids are immediately drawn to it and just drawing immediately and showing me their drawings. It's really cool to see that kind of thing. There was one kid who already had created -- because they knew that I was coming, they had created a whole book on Spaghetti and Meatball.

Zibby: Awesome. I love how Hamburger and Hot Dog have cameos in your book. Those are important best supporting actress and actor. Actually, I think they're both boys.

Stephen: They're not very nice to Hamburger and Hot Dog. Some people had pointed that out. One of the things about Pizza and Taco is that they're kids. They have flaws. They're not perfect. They're going to be jerks sometimes. Even in this book, they're kind of jerks to each other. That just happens. You can't have a best friend without having a best friend fight. You can't grow up without having kids around that you're not that friendly with. It just happens. You can't be friends with everyone. It's an unrealistic adult perception of childhood. If you think back to when you were in kindergarten and first grade, there are kids that you liked and there are kids that you didn't like. There are kids that you wanted to play with and kids that were like, god, do I have to play with that kid again? I'm not saying that that's good. I'm just saying that that's real. Flaws in characters are real. These characters have a lot of flaws. They're not perfect characters.

Zibby: How is it collaborating with your wife? What is that like? How has the coronavirus impacted your work together?

Stephen: I'm actually working on dummying out a picture book that she just wrote while I'm working on -- I just finished dummying out the third Pizza and Taco. The second Pizza and Taco comes out next year. It's Pizza and Taco: Best Party Ever. They throw a party. I just finished dummying out the third book, which is where they make a [distorted audio] that she just wrote. We work really well together, actually, which is really nice. She's written probably three or four picture books since working on something collaboratively last time. Most of them are things that I wouldn't work on. Now this last project, I was like, I really like this project. I think I could work on this project. When we work on projects together, it's typically something that we're both invested in. We're not forcing it. It's something that we both really like and want to do. That's really important. We're also really respectful of each other. We have fights, but when it comes to writing and creating books together, we try to make the best book we can. We're really working on doing that. It's funny because I think we rub each other a little bit more wrong when it's a book that we're not working on, when it's one of our own things, our own projects, and we're critiquing our art. I'll be critiquing something that she's working on that I'm not working on with her or she'll be critiquing something that I'm working on that she's not working on with me. We tend to be not as good friends. [laughs]

For me, one thing that was kind of crummy with all the coronavirus stuff is that we basically ended up canceling probably eight different events, school visits and so forth. For us, March 14th I think was when we started shutting down here in Minneapolis. We had three events the next week at different schools to go to and different things like that and ones that hadn’t been figured quite out for May and June. That was kind of tough. We work from home anyway. We both have a studio in our house. We both have places where we work. That really hasn’t affected. Luckily, I was on deadline, so I just focused on that. Then I'm on deadline again. For me, I really enjoy working at home and being isolated. This is how I focus. With all the school visits that we had, I don't think I would've been able to finish the second book and dummy out the third book all in this time as well.

Zibby: Do you have any parting advice for aspiring illustrators, artists, children's book writers?

Stephen: My advice is for kids more than for aspiring. If you like something, just keep doing it. I talked about how I had those friends in elementary school that I made comics with. Out of that group of kids, I think there were five of us, only two went on to be artists. That's me and another friend. He does fine art. I do comics and picture books. I was, out of those five friends, probably as talent goes, like fifth, but I just kept doing it. Nowadays, if those kids who are now adults would be drawing again, they wouldn't be as strong of an artist as I am because they just stopped doing it. They're having very happy lives doing what they're [indiscernible/laughter]. Still, just keep doing it. Don't let other kids get you down. If you see somebody else being a better artist than you, that's great, just keep working at it. You'll get better and better. If you like music, if you like science, if you like anything, just keep working at it. That's my advice for kids.

Zibby: I'm going to play this for my kids later. Thank you.

Stephen: Thank you so much for having me.

Zibby: Thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it. Thanks for the hours of entertainment you've given us during this quarantine with Pizza and Taco. I'm really grateful. Thank you.

Stephen: Thank you.

Zibby: Take care. Bye.

Thanks so much for listening to Young Readers Tuesday, part of my July Book Blast. I hope you've enjoyed it.

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Chioma Momah, FIRST DAY AT THE BIG SCHOOL

Zibby Owens: Chioma Momah is the author of First Day at the Big School. She is based in Nigeria where she's a regulatory sector lawyer and a member of the Nigerian Bar and the Chartered Institute of Arbitrators. A children's book author, she started the L.E.A.R.N program in schools where she speaks on reading and writing skills. She's passionate about encouraging working mothers through her blog, www.chioma.net.

Hi.

Chioma Momah: Hi, Zibby.

Zibby: Welcome to "Moms Don't Have Time to Read Books."

Chioma: How are you?

Zibby: Good. How are you?

Chioma: I'm fine. Thank you. Great to be here.

Zibby: Where in Nigeria are you?

Chioma: I'm in Abuja.

Zibby: Where is that in Nigeria? [laughs]

Chioma: Abuja is the capitol, so right in the middle. It's the north of Nigeria, actually, but it's kind of in the middle.

Zibby: Awesome. From around the world, here we go.

Chioma: Nice to be here.

Zibby: It's nice to be here with you. Tell me about The Big School, kids going to the big school. What made you want to write this book? Tell me the whole story of how you wrote a children's book and why about this topic and all the rest.

Chioma: First off, I always loved reading, voracious reader. The moment I started having children, I noticed that most of the books were, I didn't see enough Nigerian characters, people of color, people that they could relate to, which was the same thing I had when growing up. All the books were either Enid Blyton or -- what's his name? The guy that wrote about the giants. Just the same books I had read growing up. They were great books. Eric Carle. They were amazing books.

Zibby: Roald Dahl?

Chioma: Roald Dahl. I'm thinking of Roald Dahl. I love his books. Charlie and the Chocolate Factory, the same books I had read growing up. I wasn't seeing things with African characters or Nigerian characters. I was like, I would like to tell a story that had things that they recognized, Nigerian food, Nigerian names, Nigerian skin texture. That was it. I wrote it for my children, basically. I wanted my children to see a book where they had names and faces and events that they recognized. Then I thought of, my eldest childhood memory was when I left kindergarten and started grade school. For me, it was a big shock because I was leaving being a baby. In kindergarten and in earlier school, I had -- you're [indiscernible]. You're like a baby. Then when I got into grade one, it was a bit scary because I thought they wanted us to all be grown up all of a sudden. I just imagine that for other children, they would have the same issue, especially if they're changing to a new school, they were transitioning to a different school. They would be so uncertain.

For us in Nigeria, once you leave kindergarten to grade school, a lot of things change. You start wearing uniforms. You move to a different building. For me, I was like, I'm sure there are a lot of children who are wondering what it would be like to go to a different school and all the mix of emotions they would have, meeting new friends, having a new teacher, just dealing with so many new experiences all at once. Then there would be excitement as well. That was why I wrote that book. I wanted to be able to relate to children, for them to be able to see something they could relate with, children who are Nigerian children with Nigerian names and experience, which I think every child can relate with and even every adult because everyone has gone through that thing where you have to get a new job or go to a new school or move to a new city. You're faced with, what is it going to be like? Will I like it? Will it be scary? Will I make friends? That's really what that book was about, just all those mix of emotions that everybody goes through when they're dealing with a brand-new experience.

Zibby: It couldn’t have come at a better time. I have four kids. My littlest guy is starting kindergarten in the fall, which sounds more like the transition from K to first grade for you in that it will be a dress code and a new school and bigger building. Who knows if school will even start in the fall anymore, but all of those feelings, it's so great to have a book. Obviously, there are some other books that deal with back to school. Like you said, having new characters and having a new point of view and the fact that kids in Nigeria are going through the same things, people all over the world. You know when you say to yourself, I'm not the only one, people all over the world -- it's one thing to think that. Then to have an example of another child in a school in Nigeria, it makes it all just seem so relatable. Then you don't feel so weird that you're all nervous yourself.

Chioma: Exactly. We all have the same experiences. That's what I see. Everyone all over the world has their own example of that experience, but we all have similar experiences everywhere.

Zibby: It's true. Even though everyone knows that, I think everyone needs to see it to have it hit home. Just being able to think it is not enough. Did your kids appreciate when you wrote it?

Chioma: They did. I based the main character on my daughter. Her name is Olanna. I named her Lana after my daughter. They were really excited to see. They were super, super excited. Then the funniest thing happened. Other people were excited as well, but I didn't expect that. Like I said, I wrote it for my children. I said, my children will read it. Friends' children will read it. Just a few people in my community would read it. Then I had people who I didn't even know, people who I hadn’t spoken to in years were like, "Oh, my god, we loved it." It's on Amazon now, so people all over the world basically, people in Canada, people in South Africa, people in the US, people in England writing me to say, "I read your book. My child loves it." They could relate to it. They were transitioning to grade school or kindergarten or whatever, and they could relate to this story. It was just amazing for them. It went to places I would never have expected. I've gone to different cities in Nigeria where I've been told to come and read, do book reading to children transitioning just to prepare them for that next stage of school. My children loved it. A lot of other children loved it as well. It's done really well, thank goodness.

Zibby: That's great. What has it been like with your kids with the quarantine this spring? What is it like now?

Chioma: They are tired of online school. That's one thing I can say. They are tired of classes online. It's just a bit too much for them. They're happy that Mommy's home because I'm home 24/7 now. That's the best part. They have Mommy home with them all the time. I don't have to go to work. I think everyone is ready to be able to go back to school to learn. For them, the best part has just been having Mommy and Daddy here and baking a lot. I'm in the kitchen a lot. I'm playing games with them. We're doing hopscotch and playing football together. They're just happy to have me home. That's the best part for them.

Zibby: What's your day job?

Chioma: I'm a lawyer. I work for the government. I work for a government agency, a government office. I work in the legal department. It was a busy nine-to-five job. Basically, on a regular day, if I go home by six PM, they would be happy. Just seeing me here every day is like, oh, my goodness, they come and give me hugs every one hour, a new hug, "Oh, Mommy, I love you." It's going to be hard for them when I have to go back to work. We're just enjoying the moment. We're living in the moment. I told somebody, when you have family, you don't have that much to miss. You think of people who don't have families who have to be by themselves who have no siblings to play with or no family, no children or whatever. I guess they're all making the best of it in one way or the other. Thank god for technology so we can talk, do video calls, and stuff like that.

Zibby: For your book, how did you find an illustrator? You didn't illustrate it yourself?

Chioma: I did not. That was the hardest part. I was in England at that time. I was studying. I was in grad school, what you guys call grad school in the States. I was there with my two youngest children when I decided to write the book. I kept on looking for an illustrator. It was really tough. I didn't know where to start, to be honest. Luckily, I found somebody online. I think he lives in Vietnam. I discussed my ideas with him, sent him the characters' descriptions. A lot of the things I wrote about, he didn't understand the concepts, but he did really well. We've done a second book, which he did amazing. We're working on our third book together. I found him in Vietnam. He's really, really gifted. It was just amazing bringing this character to life with him. The whole concept of children with cornrows in their hair, he didn't understand any of that. I had to show him lots of pictures. I had lots of meetings with him. He did a great job.

Zibby: It's just so amazing to me that you thought of this idea in England. You wrote it in Nigeria. You collaborated with a man in Vietnam. Now you and I are on Skype. I'm here in New York. We're talking about your book that people read all over the world. It's just amazing. I always think about the power of books to bring people together. This is just such a great example. Look at this, and how your vision can make people feel better everywhere. It's the coolest. I just think it's the coolest.

Chioma: Technology's amazing. I tell kids, you can tell a story in front of your friends at home, but when you write a book, it could go anywhere, literally anywhere in the world. A lot of the books I read as a child were books like the classics, Little Women, Jane Eyre's books, Huckleberry Finn, Tom Sawyer. Those were books that were written somewhere in some corner maybe in the US or in the UK. People have read those books all over the world. Books are just amazing, really, how they bring people together.

Zibby: What are your next two books about?

Chioma: My second book is called A Fun Day in the Museum. It's a series. I'm still with Lana and her friends. They go to see a museum. In that book, I tried to talk about history. In Nigeria, children aren't taught history the way they should be. A lot of things are just glossed over. A lot of kids don't know about great people in our historical past who have done a lot for this country. I try to bring up our founding fathers in that book. I put their pictures there, spoke about our artifacts, spoke about stuff that has happened in Nigeria, the civil war we had. I tried to put all of that in the museum so as the children were going around, they were discovering stuff about their country. The third book, which is still far from finished, the children go to the village. Just to give you an example of what it is to go to the village, I live in Abuja, which is the city. It's an urban city, but everybody comes from some village or the other. My father was born in some village down east. A lot of Nigerians every year, either Christmastime or Eastertime or some time of the year, they go to visit their village. It's really rural. It's really rustic. It's really lots of fun. It's really different. Growing up, I did a lot of that. Every year, we went down to the village to spend time with my grandmother.

I want to bring those memories alive for those of us who had those experiences. Nowadays, it's not as common. Children don't go to the villages that often. For those of us that did, it was really, really a great experience for us, so I want to write about that so that children can see what village life was like. It was really fun, playing with goats, going to the stream. It was fun. It was really, really fun. That's what that book is about. Then just meeting up with your cousins who you haven't seen from all over the country and all over the world because it was like a big, great homecoming. Everyone would come home for Christmas. Then you would see people that you haven't seen in years. I'm really excited about that project. Then also, I'm writing a book for women as well, something different. Actually, two books. It started out as one book, but I've had to make it two books now. I'm writing about women in history who have done great things, women like Amelia Earhart, women like Mary Slessor who was a great missionary to Nigeria, women who have done amazing things over time and the lessons we can learn from them. I'm really excited about that project. That book should be out in another month or so. I'm really working hard on that to get it finished.

Zibby: Wow, good for you. This whole time of being at home has not affected your productivity in a negative way at all.

Chioma: At all. It's been a blessing in disguise for my writing. When I'm at work full time, I'm more engaged with work working as a lawyer. Now that I'm home, I don't get to do as much office work as I normally do, which I miss, but it's been a blessing in disguise, to be honest, because I've had time to catch up on all these projects, time to speak with you on Skype, and just do other things that I really enjoy, time to spend with the children and bond more with them, time to bake. It's been good. It's been a good time for me, to be honest.

Zibby: How do you come up with all the ideas for all of your different projects?

Chioma: Inspiration. I think for all of us, our inspiration is from our childhood. For many people that write, it's stuff that has happened to you. Like I said for my first book, it was my experience, the rude shock I got starting grade school, or primary school like we call it here. Now I was a big kid all of a sudden. I had to wear a uniform. Things just changed. Then also, my love for history inspired the second book. Then my love for just thinking back on village life inspired the third one. For me, I do a lot of speaking to women. I try to encourage women a lot because in our society, I think all over the world, women, once they start having children, they feel that that's it. I tell women there's so much more you can do. Yes, you can be a great parent. You can be a great mom. You can also do stuff that you love as well apart from parenting, apart from raising your children. I just try to encourage them to look. Whatever career path you want to do -- like you say, you don't have time to read, but you do have time to read. You can make time to do other things if you really want to. I just try to encourage women. With this latest book I'm working on for women, I've spoken about all these women who had so many things against them. There were gender issues. There was race discrimination that they had to deal with. There are so many issues. Yet they were able to do those things that they dreamt of doing, so just to encourage women to be like, go for your dreams. You can do it. That's where, especially, my writing comes from, is from things that I like to inspire ladies to do in real life. Go for your dreams. Don't let motherhood look like something negative. It's a beautiful thing. Being a mother should not make you be less of a human being or not accomplish any other thing that you need or you desire to accomplish.

Zibby: I think a lot of people need to hear that, so thank you for that. That's great. What do you like to read? What are you reading now? Any good books?

Chioma: The book I'm reading now, it's called Debra or Deborah. Like I said, I like being inspired by women as I inspire other women. I'm reading about Deborah who was a great judge in the Bible and just reading about all the amazing things she did, how she went to war with these mighty men and how she won, how basically if she hadn’t gone with them, they would not have won that war. I'm just reading stuff about inspiring people. Another book I just read recently, which was really amazing because I love history, was a book about sea women in Korea. That was really interesting just to see how women were so strong, how they made a living and still had to come back and be mothers. A lot of the books I'm reading are by inspiring women.

Zibby: Love it. What advice would you have to aspiring authors?

Chioma: Aspiring authors, your story is in you. You have your story right in you. You don't have to go searching for it. Think back. Think of your memories. Think of your experiences. Think of those things that really touched you when you were a child, or even adulthood. Think of those experiences that stand out to you, and you can tell a story from there. You don't have to copy someone's story. You can be original. We all have stories inside of us, hundreds of stories waiting to be told. Just think and think. What story would I like people to hear? What is that authentic story I have inside of me? That’s my number-one advice. Your story is in you. Think about it. Then don't be afraid to write. Your writing might not be perfect, but then we have editors. We have people who can help you. Just start. Start writing. Start today. Don't put it off until tomorrow. Start now.

Zibby: Love it. I'm going to go write right now. I'm going to just go now that you said that. No, I'm kidding. I don't have time for that today, but I would like to. Thank you so much. I'm so glad you came on my podcast. I'm so glad we could connect across the world about our kids and books and the power of not feeling alone.

Chioma: Thanks for having me.

Zibby: It's my pleasure, oh, my gosh.

Chioma: So how's New York? How are you guys doing?

Zibby: Okay. I'm not in the city right now. I haven't been to my home in the city now for three and half months or so. I miss it. I don't know. Slowly going back to normal, itsy-bitsy steps. I think the worst part is that --

Chioma: -- It's over.

Zibby: Yes, I think the worst part is over, but I think the lingering side effects are that everybody looks at each other as though they could be the enemy in a way. You don't know who has coronavirus.

Chioma: That's the saddest part. I agree.

Zibby: I like to hug people so much and have everybody over. It's created this distance when my whole thing is connection. It saddens me. That's the worst part. Other than that, my family is healthy, my close friends. People who have had it are better. How about you?

Chioma: I can totally relate. In my city, churches are open now, but I'm not going to church because like I told my husband, the whole issue going out to church, going out and meeting people, you want to hug them. You want to say, "How are you?" and give them a great big hug. Nobody's doing that right now. That just seems weird. It's a bit painful for me. I'd rather just stay home and wait it out a bit. Like you said, everybody suspicious. You see your friend and you're standing like, "Oh, hi. Hello." That's just not me. I'm big on physical connection. I'm very social as well. That, for me, is the saddest part as well. The other day I went out to get some groceries. I saw my very good friend and I just said hi. Normally, I would give her a big hug. I was sad I couldn't do that. I'm hoping that things will slowly get back to normal. It might take time. I'm just grateful. I'm thanking God for all the opportunities I've had during this period, thanking God that my family is well. Like you, I had a few people who were ill, and they're all fine. I have family all over the world, in the US, Seattle, Houston, [indiscernible]. Everybody's fine. That's something to be thankful for, that everybody's in good health. I can't wait for this to be over. I really can't.

Zibby: Me too. Maybe one day you and I can get together in real life and give each other a hug. That would be very nice.

Chioma: That would be awesome. That would be great. Thank you so much, Zibby.

Zibby: Now we have some long-term goals. [laughter] Thank you again. This has been so nice. Thanks for sending me your book and for helping my little guy through his transition in the fall to school. Thank you.

Chioma: Thank you. Such a pleasure. I'm glad he liked it. I'm glad you liked it. It was great to be able to talk to you. Thanks for all the great work you're doing with authors and just getting women to read more. It's pretty amazing. Thank you so much.

Zibby: Thank you. Thanks. Buh-bye.